Is Manganese the solution??

[Beggiatoa]

There's been a lot of talk on this board about how to maximize Dopamine levels. I think we established that there is something wrong with Dopamine homeostasis in our brains and we looked at different ways to increase this. From low dose alcohol, to copper, L-tyrosine, etc.

One little mineral has been neglected and it turns out that it is VERY important for Dop. production. This is manganese.

I've been using it for a few weeks now and have had amazing results. This has been better than Tyrosine, copper, Selegiline and even pramipexole. Not only do I NOT have social anxiety anymore but I have, as of late, grabbed life by the balls and I'm taking no prisoners. I am really living life to fullest.

I'd like to get a discussion going about this very important mineral.

Who's using it?

[Beggiatoa]

The upper limit for dietary intake is set at 11 mg. Some makers have gone up as high as 50 mg! But to be safe, I'd stick to 10 mg or so..

Mn seems to have a selectivity for dopamine neurons. If you research this, you'll find a lot of info. on how toxic it is. All this research though, focuses on neonates and occupational exposures from welders and water contamination so I think it's misleading. It seems Mn is very important for the production of Dop.

[Beggiatoa]

Cofactors needed to make dopamine: click here

These include magnesium, manganese, zinc, copper, vitamin c, folic acid, iron and B6.

[proximo20]

I have noticed that manganese rich foods are very good for the health then I remembered that manganese was one of the minerals that your hair test showed deficiency.

I have not been using manganese supplements because of the side effect concerns, but I have been eating manganese rich foods like spinach, oat, lettuce, blueberries, pineapples, rye, black beans, walnuts, pumpkin seeds etc.

I don't know maybe I was deficient and it is not related to SA but I can tell the difference when I make my sandwich with rye bread instead of white bread. I don't experience the foggy mind or tiredness when eat rye or oat bread.

I have been on this diet for 3 months and I can feel the difference, even from my posts lol I am not irritable or nervous as I used to be.

[LostPancake]

hmm, sounds interesting. just be careful you don't get manganism! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganism

it's interesting that too much manganese winds up doing damage to the dopamine-producing neurons. maybe the body transports a lot of it there, and then it does oxidative damage to the cells?

so yeah, be careful - it might build up in your body over time. (?)

[Beggiatoa]

The only reported cases of manganism are due to inhaled dust. In this form, it quickly accumulates in the brain and destroys Dopamine neurons there. If you read the causes in that wiki- link, nowhere does it talk about dietary or supplemental toxicity. There are some vegetarian diets that provide more than 20 mg per day! So, it begs the questions.

Causes

Manganism has become an active issue in workplace safety as it has been the subject of numerous product liability lawsuits against manufacturers of arc welding supplies. In these lawsuits, welders have accused the manufacturers of failing to provide adequate warning that their products could cause welding fumes to contain dangerously high manganese concentrations that could lead welders to develop manganism. Companies employing welders are also being sued, for what colloquially is known as "welders' disease."
Another cause of the disorder is methcathinone, an amphetamine that is often prepared with poor quality control using potassium permanganate as an oxidiser, leading to high proportion of the toxic substance in the drug. The practice and its victims are reported in former USSR states.[3]

Another street drug sometimes contaminated with manganese is the so-called "Bazooka", prepared by free-base methods from cocaine using manganese carbonate.[4][citation needed]
Reports also mention such sources as contaminated drinking water,[5] and fuel additive methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT),[6] which on combustion becomes partially converted into manganese phosphates and sulfate that go airborne with the exhaust,[7][8][9] and manganese ethylene-bis-dithiocarbamate (MANEB), a pesticide.[10]

Low and high levels of most minerals cause the same problems. So, manganese in high concentration damages dopamine neurons but in adequate concentration, it will helps theses same neurons function properly. Think about it.

[LostPancake]

Originally Posted by Beggiatoa

The only reported cases of manganism are due to inhaled dust. In this form, it quickly accumulates in the brain and destroys Dopamine neurons there. If you read the causes in that wiki- link, nowhere does it talk about dietary or supplemental toxicity. There are some vegetarian diets that provide more than 20 mg per day! So, it begs the questions.

Low and high levels of most minerals cause the same problems. So, manganese in high concentration damages dopamine neurons but in adequate concentration, it will helps theses same neurons function properly. Think about it.

okay, i'm just being paranoid. the contaminated drug did cause it also, but apparently that was in a person with liver damage. so i guess if your liver isn't working properly, it wouldn't be able to excrete the manganese, and it might build up in your system then.

i wonder how long the effects will last? if it's indefinite, that would be great, because i could definitely use some more dopamine.

did you get the sense that you might be able to just take it on days when you need extra focus, or is it a more gradual thing?

[LostPancake]

hmm...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19337503

we administered weekly doses of 3.3-5.0 (n=4), 5.0-6.7 (n=5), or 8.3-10.0 mg Mn/kg (n=3) for 7-59 weeks to cynomolgus macaque monkeys. Animals expressed subtle deficits in cognition and motor function and decreases in the N-acetylaspartate-to-creatine ratio in the parietal cortex measured by magnetic resonance spectroscopy reflective of neuronal dysfunction. Impaired striatal dopamine release measured by positron emission tomography was observed

okay, say you're 150 lbs = 68 kg

so 3mg/kg * 68kg / 7 days = 29 mg/day
and 10mg/kg * 68kg / 7 days = 97 mg/day

am i doing that right? i haven't read the article so don't know how they administered it - injection? pill? would it matter? and they are monkeys, not humans.

what's your take on it?

and how much do we normally get in the diet, do you know?

[proximo20]

Originally Posted by LostPancake

decreases in the N-acetylaspartate-to-creatine ratio in the parietal cortex

RESULTS: Generalized anxiety disorder patients had a 16.5% higher N-acetylaspartate/creatine ratio in the right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex compared with healthy participants;

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/...ull/161/6/1119

[courtycat]

Originally Posted by proximo20

I have noticed that manganese rich foods are very good for the health then I remembered that manganese was one of the minerals that your hair test showed deficiency.

I have not been using manganese supplements because of the side effect concerns, but I have been eating manganese rich foods like spinach, oat, lettuce, blueberries, pineapples, rye, black beans, walnuts, pumpkin seeds etc.

I don't know maybe I was deficient and it is not related to SA but I can tell the difference when I make my sandwich with rye bread instead of white bread. I don't experience the foggy mind or tiredness when eat rye or oat bread.

I have been on this diet for 3 months and I can feel the difference, even from my posts lol I am not irritable or nervous as I used to be.

***Maybe this is why I crave these foods so much? My body's way of saying I'm deficient?

[LostPancake]

Originally Posted by proximo20

RESULTS: Generalized anxiety disorder patients had a 16.5% higher N-acetylaspartate/creatine ratio in the right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex compared with healthy participants;

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/...ull/161/6/1119

hang on, i'm new to some of this stuff -

N-acetylaspartate (NAA) gives off the largest signal in magnetic resonance spectroscopy of the human brain, and the levels measured there are decreased in numerous neuropathological conditions ranging from brain injury to stroke to Alzheimer's disease. This fact makes NAA a reliable diagnostic molecule for doctors treating patients with brain damage or disease.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-Acetylaspartate

so NAA is a marker for neuron activity/health.

and apparently the right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (DLPFC) is hyperactive in major depression, generalized anxiety disorder, and social phobia. but that's in a different part of the brain.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17888408
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/...ull/161/6/1119

so for the manganese study, it was just showing that the parietal cortex was underfunctioning. does that mean the monkeys were just moving around less or closing their eyes more? (parietal cortex handles sensory information mostly) i dunno...

[Starfox]

Thats good info to know!

[Starfox]

Thats good info to know!

[Beggiatoa]

Found this blog. This guy seemed to have discovered manganese much the same way I did. Basically, after trying magnesium, zinc, copper, etc...

http://aaronjreid.wordpress.com/tag/manganese/

[proximo20]

Originally Posted by Beggiatoa

Found this blog. This guy seemed to have discovered manganese much the same way I did. Basically, after trying magnesium, zinc, copper, etc...

http://aaronjreid.wordpress.com/tag/manganese/

Cool discovery.

This part is interesting from the link: Nerve problems (stuttering, depression, worry) call for manganese in the diet. Low manganese can trigger epileptic seizures.
Poor memory, absentmindedness, disjointed thought may indicate a shortage of manganese in the diet.

[LostPancake]

Originally Posted by Beggiatoa

Found this blog. This guy seemed to have discovered manganese much the same way I did. Basically, after trying magnesium, zinc, copper, etc...

http://aaronjreid.wordpress.com/tag/manganese/

some interesting stuff from that blog -

Usually, the entire body contains less than 50 milligrams (mg) of manganese. Manganese is stored half in the bones and the remainder in the liver, pancreas, pituitary gland and kidneys.

The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for manganese is 7 mg.

It is important to emphasize, however, that a manganese deficiency is very rare in humans, and does not usually develop unless manganese is deliberately eliminated from the diet. In addition, it has been suggested that magnesium substitutes for manganese in certain enzyme systems if manganese is deficient, thereby allowing the body to function normally despite the deficiency.

The best food sources of manganese are nuts, whole grains, seeds and fresh vegetables. Buckwheat, oats and wheat are cereals high in manganese. Hazelnuts, chestnuts, pecans, Brazil nuts and almonds rate highest among nuts. Sunflower and pumpkin seeds are manganese-rich as are watercress, peas, beans and turnip greens.

Many of our food crops are now generally deficient in magnesium, iron, zinc, selenium, manganese and copper. In order to improve our health and that of future generations we must re-mineralize our soils.

i'd be wary about taking more than the RDA (7mg), in light of the study done on the monkeys. the guy with the blog went as high as 75mg. that doesn't sound good...

it's understandable that there might be a short term benefit from it, if the excess manganese is allowing production of more enzymes for dopamine, but the excess manganese could also cause long-term oxidative damage, killing off the dopamine-producing cells.

and i say could, because i don't know what dose in a human would do that. but given the choice between SA and Parkinsonism, i'd take the SA. but i'm paranoid.

[proximo20]

Originally Posted by LostPancake

some interesting stuff from that blog -



i'd be wary about taking more than the RDA (7mg), in light of the study done on the monkeys. the guy with the blog went as high as 75mg. that doesn't sound good...

it's understandable that there might be a short term benefit from it, if the excess manganese is allowing production of more enzymes for dopamine, but the excess manganese could also cause long-term oxidative damage, killing off the dopamine-producing cells.

and i say could, because i don't know what dose in a human would do that. but given the choice between SA and Parkinsonism, i'd take the SA. but i'm paranoid.

I know that Beggiota has done blood and hair mineral tests, I think it would be better to test your levels before taking these mineral supplements and I personally prefer to change my diet instead of taking pills.

No I give up, I know someone will say tomorrow here: I ate walnuts and still feel anxious, as if they should work like xanax, I don't know why I keep posting in this section.

[Beggiatoa]

I always saw SA as an early form of parkinson's since they both involve degeneration of dopaminergic neurons. The toxicity that causes manganism and thus, atypical parkinson's in only seen in welders that breathe in manganese dust and other metals. There are no reports of dietary or supplemental intoxication. Well, all except one that I often see referenced in papers but I can't find the study itself anywhere. Nor does it go into detail of how much this person used. Maybe you can try??

32. Keen CL, Zidenberg-Cherr S. Manganese toxicity in humans and experimental animals. In: Klimis-Tavantzis DL, ed. Manganese in health and disease. Boca Raton: CRC Press, Inc; 1994:193-205.

[Beggiatoa]

I always saw SA as an early form of parkinson's since they both involve degeneration of dopaminergic neurons. The toxicity that causes manganism and thus, atypical parkinson's in only seen in welders that breathe in manganese dust and other metals. There are no reports of dietary or supplemental intoxication. Well, all except one that I often see referenced in papers but I can't find the study itself anywhere. Nor does it go into detail of how much this person used. Maybe you can try??

32. Keen CL, Zidenberg-Cherr S. Manganese toxicity in humans and experimental animals. In: Klimis-Tavantzis DL, ed. Manganese in health and disease. Boca Raton: CRC Press, Inc; 1994:193-205.

[Beggiatoa]

Mn as a cofactor for dopamine. It's hard to find sources to back this up. I just read scant statements here and there. This picture should help, though.