choline craze

I think everyone has been following this choline cure thing quite closely.. If you are taking the choline, we need to have more information as to how it helps you deal with your anxiety. Don't get everyones hopes up. Articulate more for us. I remain skeptical. Thanks!

[jasonz]

why not you try it yourself too?

It doesn't make much sense to assume that SA is caused by a deficit in acetylcholine... It certainly plays a role in our neurochemistry but why would I believe that it works based on 1 or two posters.. They could simply be having a placebo experience where they gain more confidence simply because they were tricked into thinking it may actually work. Most people get enough acetylcholine precursor in their diet usually. I'd also like to point out that one poster had said they were taking lecithin granules for their acne I believe it was??? They said that it had absolutely no effect on their SA.

I'd like to ask the last poster why they asked me if I had taken it myself instead of adding more credibility by saying they had positive results with it? I've already purchased Acetyl L-Carnitine. I'm experimenting slowly by increasing the dosages of it and thus far I dont see my SA rapidly disappearing.. I've had more positive results with a product called Seredyn.. Google it if you're interested. It's also been recently introduced as a new topic on the board.

[Bucs623]

Like I've said in the other Choline thread, it helps with 1 neurotransmitter, but not all of them. If youre in need of more mental focus/energy, it helps (for me at least). Do I think it tackles anxiety? Not really, but its a mild step forward. We need to understand that there are more neurotransmitters than just ACh (Aceytlcholine). Dopamine, Serotonin...those need to be elevated and balanced too.

[Caedmon]

I had a number of questions about this subject. I'm still rather curious about some of them. These are ones I would find most interesting:

Could ACh be counterproductive wrt anxiety since it is excitatory and agonizes NMDA-type glutamate receptors? I'm also wondering if there could be increased depression from ACh-ergic treatments.

The American College of Neuropsychopharmacology has an excellent article on ACh and mood/stress. It is fairly insistent that cholinergic substances can have detrimental mood effects, and that anti-cholinergic drugs may have mood-boosting and anti-stress effects.
http://www.acnp.org/G4/GN401000095/CH.html

[Bucs623]

I think anything at a high dose could be bad. Everyone is different with the amount of nutrients they need. Choline in the right amount could be beneficial.

[Panic Prone]

For most of us I doubt acytlcholine is our problem. More towards gaba.

[FearNoMore]

Everything I have read suggests that having a high level of ACH increases socialibility. It may be excitatory, but it gets things going that are needed for social interaction. It is true, however, that extremely high levels of ACH will cause increased anxiety. I have never experienced this yet.

[enlydiazee]

I had just been reading a book on nutrition from a well known nutritionist from over 60 years ago...(Adele Davis) and she was mentioning how important Choline is for good health...I was then surprised to see it mentioned on here...Choline is also in foods you eat...like eggs, green leafy vegetables...soy beans, liver etc...even dandelions...if you can't afford to buy it...you can probably go out and pick it in your backyard...but it is extremely important and I think the lack of it can cause some mental issues...of course the B vitamins are also essential for mental health...and the immune system.

[R]

Didn't work for me...everything i read says it helps memory not socialibility, unless for you the two are related.

[triffidfood]

Originally Posted by Caedmon

Could ACh be counterproductive wrt anxiety since it is excitatory and agonizes NMDA-type glutamate receptors? I'm also wondering if there could be increased depression from ACh-ergic treatments.

The American College of Neuropsychopharmacology has an excellent article on ACh and mood/stress. It is fairly insistent that cholinergic substances can have detrimental mood effects, and that anti-cholinergic drugs may have mood-boosting and anti-stress effects.
http://www.acnp.org/G4/GN401000095/CH.html

My experience with DMAE (choline agonist, or at least a compund with a very similar structure & action to choline) and also with high doses of soya lecithin is that they cause (for me anyway) anxiety, jitteryness and a kind of mental fogginess/ depression.

There is a theory (one that seems to have a lot of evidence accumulating behind it) that some forms of depression are actually caused by an imbalance between Acetylcholine on the one hand (i.e. too much of this) and too little serotonin/ noradrenaline (possibly dopamine?) on the other.

The most effective antidepressant I've tried was Efexor, which (like most SSRIs I think) decreases your levels of Acetylcholine (not by design, it's an incidental/ accidental effect), which is why people suddenly stopping these often experience vivd dreams & myriad other side effects, as a result of an Acetylcholine rebound. (Actually, I really enjoyed my Acetylcholine rebound dreams & even sometimes skipped doses intentionally because of them, but anyway, I guess it probably isn't really a very good idea to mess around with your neurochemistry like that... )

[Caedmon]

^ Right, this is my general understanding based on literature, in most participants of studies anyway.

[R]

ACh Enables muscle action, learning, and memory according to my psyc book. It also says it is one of the best understood NT's and doesn't mention any like to mood. It's a up to date college book by David G. Myers

[D.B. Cooper]

I did the whole piractem/choline thing when it was popular back in 2004. Dont waste your money, seriously.

[jasonz]

Originally Posted by D.B. Cooper

I did the whole piractem/choline thing when it was popular back in 2004. Dont waste your money, seriously.

may i know if u take in high dosage of lecithin to really feel the effect?

[Machine]

In social anxiety for some, acetylcholine might play a role but also try L-tyrosine and 5-HTP.

In sexual exhaustion, acetylcholine is only a part of the problem. 5-HTP, choline, GABA, L-tyrosine, a testosterone supplement and a multi-vitamin along with borage & fish oil used to be the basic regiment of treatment for sexual exhaustion back then. But it doesn't work for everyone so we are still trying to see what's missing.

[Beggiatoa]

BUMP
I know this post is old but I found this article online about Choline deficiency and social phobia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8276746

Proton localized magnetic resonance spectroscopy was studied in 20 social phobics and 20 age- and sex-matched controls. Stimulated Echo Acquisition Mode volume element localization was used with chemical shift imaging. Choline and creatine signal-to-noise ratios (SNRs) were significantly lower in social phobia than in controls in subcortical, thalamic, and caudate areas. In the social phobic group, N-acetylaspartate (NAA) SNR was significantly lower in cortical and subcortical regions, and ratios of NAA to other metabolites were lower in social phobia. Choline, creatine, and NAA SNRs were inversely correlated to total social phobia and fear symptoms, as measured by the Brief Social Phobia Scale, in the thalamic and noncortical gray areas. In a small number of patients who received clonazepam, posttreatment SNRs generally increased relative to baseline. Our results suggest a promising place for magnetic resonance spectroscopy in social phobia and also indicate potential pharmacodynamic uses of this technique.

[proximo20]

Originally Posted by Beggiatoa

BUMP
I know this post is old but I found this article online about Choline deficiency and social phobia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8276746

Proton localized magnetic resonance spectroscopy was studied in 20 social phobics and 20 age- and sex-matched controls. Stimulated Echo Acquisition Mode volume element localization was used with chemical shift imaging. Choline and creatine signal-to-noise ratios (SNRs) were significantly lower in social phobia than in controls in subcortical, thalamic, and caudate areas. In the social phobic group, N-acetylaspartate (NAA) SNR was significantly lower in cortical and subcortical regions, and ratios of NAA to other metabolites were lower in social phobia. Choline, creatine, and NAA SNRs were inversely correlated to total social phobia and fear symptoms, as measured by the Brief Social Phobia Scale, in the thalamic and noncortical gray areas. In a small number of patients who received clonazepam, posttreatment SNRs generally increased relative to baseline. Our results suggest a promising place for magnetic resonance spectroscopy in social phobia and also indicate potential pharmacodynamic uses of this technique.

So has anyone tried taking creatine and choline?

And I know that some of you take cdp-choline, could you share your experiences? How is it different that choline bitarate?

[Beggiatoa]

I tried choline birtartrate and it absolutely did nothing for me. Maybe I was too impatient but I threw the bottle away, fed it to the plants. First time I used Lecithin, I felt the effects immediately. Heck, it worked so well, I stayed up all night drawing up a business plan for a supplement company.

Right now I am using CDP choline. I hesitated buying this because of the price. First day I took two pills and while it produced a positive effect, it was nothing like the lecithin. Also, it made me very sensitive and edgy. I burst at my sister over something silly. Right now I'm only using 1 pills per day and I do believe I feel an increase in cognitive function, but it's very mild. I will probably use DMAE next to boost ACH because this seems to be more cost effective.

One more thing, CDP choline also boost dopamine and norepinephrine. I posted a link to this study in another thread.

I think I'll be able to keep myself afloat by combining Tyrosine and a choline precursor.

On a side note, I hate these people that try to disprove the usefulness of something without even trying it due to "lack of scientific evidence." There doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in SA, hence the lack of research studies. In these cases, we have to rely solely on anecdotal report.I can buy a tub of lecithin for under 4 dollars. There's no reason why anyone can't try this.

On a side note, I just took 900 mg of Gotu Kola. It has a relaxing effect and it also increases mental stamina, concentration and reduces anxiety. Heck, my thoughts are just flowing right now and I feel like I can write a book. This stuff is definitely good.....and cheap!

Hey proximo, Indian herbs are the best! Bacopa, Gotu Kola, ashwagandha...

[Wellington]

CDP choline does help my focus/memory. But, it gives me more neck tension which is one of my worst problems with my SA. I probably shouldn't exceed 250mg a day.